banyanTree QA Rounds

Discussion on #banyanTree (freenode):

[14:31] ai2097: Hate to be Mr. Negative… but shouldn’t the details about what is being provided be pinned down first? Is this intended to provide software/tools, a community, the latter built atop the former (which is the impression I’m getting), or something else?

[14:32] KillerX: A community based on a portal

[14:32] SumitDatta: ai2097 that is exactly what we are doing now…

[14:32] KillerX: We will not host any projects

[14:32] KillerX: Or provide any infrastructure

[14:32] SumitDatta: discussing with the people and pinning down details

[14:32] SumitDatta: and we are not providing hosting

[14:32] KillerX: Merely the middlemen in connecting developers to those who need them

[14:33] ai2097: KillerX: Then you’re providing infrastructure.

[14:33] KillerX: Of course, if Google funds us, we can start project hosting too ;)

[14:33] SumitDatta: just think the HR department …

[14:33] ai2097: The HR department works for a company.

[14:33] KillerX: Yeah lets not compare it to HR

[14:33] ai2097: This “HR department” isn’t tied to a single project.

[14:33] KillerX: :)

[14:33] KillerX: Wrong comparision

[14:34] SumitDatta: ok HR isnt the appropriate word, but i found it the closest

[14:34] SumitDatta: the word “guide” is best suited i think

[14:34] KillerX: ai2097: A little info on yourself would be helpful?

[14:34] SumitDatta: guide to those who are new to the community as a whole

[14:36] ai2097: KillerX: I’m nobody in particular ;). Bug fixes here and there, personal projects every now and again. I poked around the GPLFlash project for a while; http://gplflash2.blogspot.com

[14:38] SumitDatta: ai2097 think of this is the following way : Google SoC lists projects from many orgs … it helps students to look around and join some project. these are projects not just related to sf or freshmeat.

[14:38] ai2097: Freshmeat, AFAIK, doesn’t host anything.

[14:39] SumitDatta: i meant projects listed there… not really hosted

[14:39] KillerX: You are right. Freshmeat is just an index of projects

[14:39] ai2097: So, why can’t we just convince freshmeat and/or sourceforge to add “help wanted” sections to each project?

[14:40] SumitDatta: what i mean is that we provide the listing of what is important right now : like FreeBSD may need someone on Fonts for example

[14:40] SumitDatta: sf has help wanted, not well coordianted

[14:40] SumitDatta: there are many projects that are not reached in those sections

[14:40] ai2097: But it’s up to FreeBSD to do two things: 1) know they need a fonts guy, and 2) put out a request for it.

[14:41] ai2097: You’re assuming that projects can figure out (1) in the first place, and have a problem with (2).

[14:41] KillerX: ai2097: The primary goal of BanyanTree is to help new people who know development but are new to the open source scenario

[14:41] ai2097: From what I can tell, if a popular project has a problem or a need, word -tends- to get around.

[14:41] SumitDatta: what about the guys who knows fonts for linux, could do it for freeBSD in summer, yet didnt get the freeBSD page in the 2 months time

[14:41] KillerX: Just think of it as an all year Google Sumer of Code, without the money

[14:42] SumitDatta: yes

[14:42] ai2097: That assumes too much.

[14:42] ai2097: I’m doing a research paper on a tangentially related issue, and I’ve come across a study conducted in 2003 about OSS projects and quality.

[14:43] SumitDatta: somethings must be assumed : and we are just assuming that project maintainers will be happy to join us

[14:43] ai2097: Nonsense! Use research, and figure out who your target audience is – then cater to the needs of that audience.

[14:44] KillerX: ai2097: Completely agree

[14:44] KillerX: That is what we are doing :)

[14:45] KillerX: ai2097: We do not intend to assume (1) or even (2)

[14:45] SumitDatta: KillerX not really, target audience and interested students are two diff worlds

[14:45] * ai2097 digs up the study

[14:46] SumitDatta: ai2097, once we pull in the roadmap and the initial plans things will be easier to understand

[14:46] ai2097: Zhao, Elbaum; 2002. Quality assurance under the Open Source development model.

[14:47] SumitDatta: link ?

[14:47] KillerX: ai2097: care to send the paper to me: [email protected]

[14:47] KillerX: Sumit, that is a research paper, goddamnit

[14:47] SumitDatta: the pdfs of many research papers are downloadable :)

[14:48] SumitDatta: so i just asked…

[14:48] ai2097: “Documentation did not play such a dominant role.

[14:48] ai2097: Over 84% of the respondents prepare a ‘‘TODO’’ list

[14:48] ai2097: (including list of pending features and open bugs). 62%

[14:48] ai2097: build installation and building guidelines, 32% projects

[14:48] ai2097: have design documents, and 20% have documents to

[14:48] ai2097: plan releases (including dates and content).

[14:48] ai2097: “

[14:48] ai2097: Ack >_o

[14:48] ai2097: That is not what I wanted to do. Sorry for the flood >_<

[14:48] SumitDatta: hehe

[14:50] KillerX: Hehe

[14:50] SumitDatta: ai2097 do you think SoC is of no use then ?

[14:50] ai2097: http: //scholar.google.com/url? sa=U&q=http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/ ~luyin/luyin.pdf

[14:50] KillerX: Yay

[14:51] ai2097: No, I don’t think it’s of no use, but it will only reach projects that either already know where they’re going, or that don’t exist (i.e., there’s a technology hole), or that google itself (or someone elese) has architected extensions that it wants to see done.

[14:52] SumitDatta: orgs like Apache receive 25 or more students for 3 months projects : that lot of manpower : do useful projects. if such a permanent environment exist more students would happily spend summer and winter to code for some org even if there isnt money involved

[14:52] ai2097: Why does Apache need you to do that?

[14:53] SumitDatta: think not in terms of individual orgs… think interms of the community : each playing its role and we volunteers coordinating the site

[14:55] SumitDatta: think in this example point of view : you subscribe to a RSS feed which informs you of all C/C++ based projects involving Flash File Format….

[14:55] ai2097: Google is in a unique position to make itself known. I can appreciate the value of centralization, but how do you expect to become the next “SoC”-type setup when Google already exists, and (if I understand correctly) is what you’re trying to emulate?

[14:55] ai2097: So, back to “why not integrate it with freshmeat”?

[14:56] SumitDatta: management problems of a new system with an existing one

[14:56] SumitDatta: thus point of starting from fresh

[14:56] ai2097: I have another study centering around the motivation of OSS contributors, too. Let me see if I can dig up a link.

[14:57] ai2097: Yes, but FM is already well-known, and already has a proven infrastructure in place. If you can extend that, instead of creating your own system, it will be more beneficial to everyone.

[14:58] SumitDatta: tell me something : when you visit FM homepage what do you see ?

[14:59] SumitDatta: if i am right i see lists of projects as in how and what they do.

[14:59] SumitDatta: we are concentrating on “how you can plug in to the project of your choice easily”

[15:00] ai2097: Well, how do you associate with a project?

[15:00] ai2097: Lemme dig up that link…

[15:01] SumitDatta: each projects has different *current* needs : from documentation to core programming. we speak to the people who are interested in devoting time to volunteer in a project : NOT users

[15:02] ai2097: http ://scholar.google.com/url? sa=U&q=http://opensource.mit.edu/papers/hemetsberger1.pdf

[15:02] ai2097: Ah, but therein lies the rub: what motivates people to participate in an OSS project in the first place?

[15:03] SumitDatta: what motivated you to jump into OSS… we all know its personal choice… i am not forcing anyone

[15:03] ai2097: You’re assuming that people want to come in out of the blue and contribute their time to any project that needs help.

[15:04] SumitDatta: i am just guiding those who want to come, yet are not aware of many current details

[15:06] ai2097: In other words, the mindset is “Gee. I really want to contribute to OSS, and I have . But I don’t know who needs me!”

[15:07] ai2097: Actually, I should phrase that in the form of a question; is that statement correct?

[15:08] SumitDatta: its not that way…. its rather “Who needs my skillset *now* “ …. take my example : i am doing gdata for drupal, because i am php coder and am interested in rss/atom stuff. but if i landed with joomla then maybe i wouldnt be able to know that drupal is asking it

[15:09] SumitDatta: here time constraints is important : a student mostly wants to learn and work on topics he knows best

[15:09] ai2097: So, shouldn’t it be tied to the bug tracker, then?

[15:09] KillerX: ai2097: It is a widely known fact that those who are willing to code, find it *very* difficult finding people who need help

[15:09] ai2097: KillerX: Sources?

[15:09] SumitDatta: ai2097 how can a student think of tracking all 400 + CMS in PHP ??????

[15:09] SumitDatta: that is insane

[15:10] KillerX: ai2097: Experience. Personal and others. Feedback. Grapevine. Not a research paper though

[15:10] ai2097: Really? I can’t seem to throw a stick without hitting projects that need some form of help or another.

[15:10] SumitDatta: that is because you want to help in anything

[15:11] SumitDatta: most students as i said concentrate in topics they know of

[15:11] ai2097: But then, I’m being argumentative for a purpose, too ;).

[15:11] SumitDatta: afterall they are not supposed to know everything

[15:11] ai2097: SumitDatta: About your previous comment, regarding “tracking all 400 + CMS in PHP” – I don’t understand what you mean.

[15:12] SumitDatta: “ai2097: So, shouldn’t it be tied to the bug tracker, then?”

[15:13] SumitDatta: which project’s bugs should he track to find the PHP + Atom combination ?

[15:13] ai2097: Oh, that’s different.

[15:13] SumitDatta: there are so many CMS in PHP out there..

[15:13] SumitDatta: that is exactly our point

[15:13] SumitDatta: it is difficult to get to right projects FAST

[15:13] ai2097: What I mean is, since it’s “what skills are needed now,” the best way to integrate the -demand- side would be to put it in the bug tracker.

[15:15] ai2097: But then, that would require any projects that want to participate have a bugtrack system that allows the devs to specify what kind of skills are required to fix the bug.

[15:15] SumitDatta: ofcourse …

[15:15] SumitDatta: this is tied to the projects after all

[15:15] SumitDatta: but the site volunteers make the task easier

[15:15] SumitDatta: and thus the need for such a unique system from scratch

[15:16] KillerX: ai2097: When I finish the roadmap, I will send you a copy. It will address all your concerns

[15:16] KillerX: :)

[15:16] SumitDatta: and thus no relation to FM

[15:16] SumitDatta: but frankly ai2097 you have probably all the questions that other mentors could ask

[15:16] SumitDatta: so i am going to Ctrl+C anc Ctrl+V all the above lines :)

[15:17] SumitDatta: you mind that ?

[15:17] ai2097: Go for it :)

[15:17] KillerX: Sumit, did you copy yesterdays conversation with Leslie?

[15:17] SumitDatta: i will put this in the blog… we both have tried to answer your questions

[15:17] KillerX: We should really log the channel, esp in the initial stages

[15:17] SumitDatta: KillerX, i forgot that i didnt have a log of that

[15:17] SumitDatta: do you have ?

[15:17] KillerX: :(

[15:18] KillerX: It’s ok

[15:18] KillerX: We remember ;)

[15:18] SumitDatta: Leslie could have…

[15:18] KillerX: I’ll ask her

[15:18] SumitDatta: ok

[15:19] SumitDatta: KillerX, i think we both did a great job in actually clearing out initial doubts since mentors will surely have questions

[15:21] KillerX: Sumit, I updated the banyanTree repos to use SVN instead of CVS

[15:21] SumitDatta: nice

[15:21] SumitDatta: you rock

[15:22] ai2097: I’m going over to a different screen; just say my name if you need me back.

[15:22] SumitDatta: ai2097, the way we see it, this project could help thousands of students around the world to get into FOSS

[15:22] ai2097: That was fast :p.

Discussion on #gnash (freenode):

[16:58] brainlessV2: tgc hi

[16:58] brainlessV2: i found out Gnash was there for Google SoC

[16:59] tgc: hi brainlessV2

[17:00] tgc: i wasent sure we even applied… but good!

[17:00] brainlessV2: also i have something that should interest you :

http://sumit.pixlie.com/2006/05/banyantree-project.html

[17:00] brainlessV2: ai2097 knows of this and has been discussing a lot with us

[17:07] tgc: brainlessV2: interesting, but hasen’t this been done before?

[17:07] tgc: isn’t sourceforge kindof the the same, except they also

hosts the projects?

[17:07] brainlessV2: not quite at this scale or that this involves all

the orgs mentors for ground up

[17:08] brainlessV2: banyanTree is intended to be very tightly knit from inside

[17:08] brainlessV2: also sf doesnt deal with projects outside sf

[17:09] tgc: is it intended to be SoC projects, or all FOSS projects?

[17:09] brainlessV2: and bt is primarily for the fresh minds that are

coming in or interested to come in to OSS

[17:10] brainlessV2: all FOSS … but we think we will start with SoC

group since the mentors were already chosen and they wont mind helping

us a bit, i guess

[17:10] brainlessV2: we will have long discussions with all

participating orgs in one room… before that we are doing the initial

setting up of wiki etc so we can express the initial ideas

[17:11] brainlessV2: right now we are planning the roadmap and plans etc…

[17:12] tgc: you could just use a wiki to hold all the information in

BT, couldn’t you?

[17:12] brainlessV2: no, because information gathering and

presentation needs huge systems

[17:12] tgc: isn’t wikipedia huge?

[17:12] kjetilho: consider SF, or Freshmeat. there are tens of

thousands of projects. it simply won’t come together as a whole

naturally

[17:13] brainlessV2: since at the end we want to be able to help many

thousands of students and similar number of projects

[17:13] kjetilho: tgc: Wikipedia isn’t made for interactive discussion

[17:14] tgc: kjetilho: true

[17:14] brainlessV2: we dont want all of them to come as a whole : if

the initial orgs come : others will feel the benefit and join

[17:15] brainlessV2: it is difficult to put something of this scale :

but we must try

[17:15] tgc: i also see a big problem with dead projects, SF got loads of them

[17:16] brainlessV2: we are thinking of ways for that

[17:16] tgc: good :)

[17:16] brainlessV2: what we are trying to do i guide those students

at the school and college levels

[17:17] brainlessV2: they have skill yet are not aware of the details inside OSS

[17:17] brainlessV2: people do have trouble finding a particular

project of interest out of so many…

[17:18] brainlessV2: we want to fill that gap : so we need to have bt

as a much more user-friendly and shinny in a way maybe

[17:18] brainlessV2: in the end we will slowly be able to build teams

of developers around the world whom we have been able to show the way

: that is the goal

[17:21] brainlessV2: tgc, kjetilho you mind if i link to this sessions

log : So that people with similar query will get an idea ?

[17:22] tgc: have you thought about teaming up with some of the “big

players“? like OSTG?

[17:22] brainlessV2: yes we have thought of that…

[17:22] tgc: fine with me

[17:22] brainlessV2: but before that happens we need to put up our plans etc.

[17:23] brainlessV2: right now i am trying to install the darn wiki on sf.net ;)

[17:23] tgc: brainlessV2: good luck! wiki on SF is painfully!

[17:24] brainlessV2: yes that is what i can see

[17:24] tgc: which wiki will you use?

[17:24] brainlessV2: dokuwiki … it is the simplest

[17:24] brainlessV2: but we have tried media, doku, and tiki

[17:24] brainlessV2: so i am retrying doku

[17:25] tgc: you could try moinmoin

[17:25] tgc: worked for gplflash

[17:25] brainlessV2: yes but i am newbie in python

[17:26] brainlessV2: though we plan to move to python

[17:26] brainlessV2: since it will give all flexibility for building

such a nice bt application